I have tried to stay away from this subject until now...I don't know why, I think it's just that the social pressure that makes you feel bad when you talk about this things, is so great, it kinda forces you to don't "trouble the waters".
Some things happened and made me change my mind.
So here it is... Religion as I see it:
My mother is an atheist. Growing up with her, made us much alike in many points. I've grown up an atheist as well.
Lately I've realized I might be wrong. I believe in science, and I don't believe in extremes, undoubtable truths nor dogmas (kinda redundant, I know...).
So I think I should define myself as agnostic instead.
I have no faith in no God. If the future shows me it exists, good... if not, I will assume it doesn't for the sake of reason. But I don't discriminate religious people, I think faith it's a natural refuge for the human mind. To think that there is something greater, wiser and stronger, taking care of us, makes us feel safe.
What I don't like is when talking about religion becomes a tabu. Who has the right to tell you you can't joke and mock it, because you might question someone's faith? I think no one.
This past weekend in our home town, there was a religious celebration. A monument of Jesus Christ has been built 50 years ago, and the image of a saint came all the way from the north of the country to... wish him a happy birthday.
It was outrageous! 200 000 euros spent, the subway closed, caos in the traffic, the public tv station making live reports all afternoon. And guess who is paying for this little christian celebration? Yeah, you got it...
This is wrong. We live in a secular society so things like these are not supposed to happen! But no one seems to care much...
I don't wanna atack any religion in particular, but Christianity is the one I deal with every day so I can't help it. I just wonder if half of these believers know any thing about it. Like really knowing, not just believing in every word that's in the Bible, just because it's there. How can someone think the true words of Jesus are written there after 2000 years of translations, censures and so long?
If you're willing to learn you can see this (it's maybe the most interesting two hours I've ever spent watching something). If you're not, don't bother...
Richard Dawkins is one of the most famous atheists in the world. So if you're thinking about asking me this, just watch:
Some things happened and made me change my mind.
So here it is... Religion as I see it:
My mother is an atheist. Growing up with her, made us much alike in many points. I've grown up an atheist as well.
Lately I've realized I might be wrong. I believe in science, and I don't believe in extremes, undoubtable truths nor dogmas (kinda redundant, I know...).
So I think I should define myself as agnostic instead.
I have no faith in no God. If the future shows me it exists, good... if not, I will assume it doesn't for the sake of reason. But I don't discriminate religious people, I think faith it's a natural refuge for the human mind. To think that there is something greater, wiser and stronger, taking care of us, makes us feel safe.
What I don't like is when talking about religion becomes a tabu. Who has the right to tell you you can't joke and mock it, because you might question someone's faith? I think no one.
This past weekend in our home town, there was a religious celebration. A monument of Jesus Christ has been built 50 years ago, and the image of a saint came all the way from the north of the country to... wish him a happy birthday.
It was outrageous! 200 000 euros spent, the subway closed, caos in the traffic, the public tv station making live reports all afternoon. And guess who is paying for this little christian celebration? Yeah, you got it...
This is wrong. We live in a secular society so things like these are not supposed to happen! But no one seems to care much...
I don't wanna atack any religion in particular, but Christianity is the one I deal with every day so I can't help it. I just wonder if half of these believers know any thing about it. Like really knowing, not just believing in every word that's in the Bible, just because it's there. How can someone think the true words of Jesus are written there after 2000 years of translations, censures and so long?
If you're willing to learn you can see this (it's maybe the most interesting two hours I've ever spent watching something). If you're not, don't bother...
Richard Dawkins is one of the most famous atheists in the world. So if you're thinking about asking me this, just watch:
I thought I could say everything I was willing to in this little big post, but there's so much I don't agree with, som many things wrong, it just takes a while longer to say it. So be prepared for more on this subject, 'cause now I believe I have all the right to say what I want about it, fearlessly...
16 comments:
Eheh, finally this subject came along =P
Well Jack, you said "What I don't like is when talking about religion becomes a tabu." I have a different opinion, (which is good right? =P) I don't think religion is considered tabu, it's just too powerful to be mocked, talked or criticized.
I know it's kind of hard for us (science believers) to understand, 'why can't we criticize back?!' well... Science is based on theories, the ones that haven't brought any problems so far, prevail, but the goal is to constantly destroy(/prove wrong) those theories and make them better right?
The problem is that, you can't try to prove, joke or any other stuff about religion because religion can't change, it was settled long, long time ago, and the life of the world's majority (maybe) is based on religion, would you corrupt their faith? (I know you wouldn't lol). My mother is very religious, I went that path when I was younger (when suddenly I discovered SCIENCE!), anywayz.. when I see how secure, safe and happy she is while believing in religion I never talk with her about it, or I try to avoid to talk about it cuz our opinions are very different and if she's happy that way why should she change?
Respect other beliefs. I think It's just a matter of respect for the others. Beliefs are just too much important to take it to the joke level, people may get lost in life, and wonder (again) what's the meaning of life...
About the 'Jesus Christ' guy (the statue), yes, I also think it was insanely overvalued, but this is just the kind of things that keeps people believing that religion is alive, to keep their beliefs. I don't agree, but I respect.
About the 2 hour movie, I haven't seen it yet but I'm very curious to see it all, and then I shall post a new comment about it =P
I wrote this comment while I was working on a group project so it's very possible that somethings just make no sense, never mind that lol.
I like to know that I'm wrong, cuz that makes me a better human been and gives me more perspectives of life, so I don't mind to be wrong, in fact, I would appreciate it...
Calvin.
Senior Ed Bloom: I don't know if you're aware of this, Josephine, but African parrots, in their native home of the Congo, they speak only French.
Josephine: Really?
Senior Ed Bloom: You're lucky to get four words out of them in English, but if you were to walk through the jungle, you'd hear them speaking the most elaborate French. Those parrots talk about everything. Politics, movies, fashion. Everything but religion.
Will Bloom: Why not religion, Dad?
Senior Ed Bloom: It's rude to talk about religion. You never know who you're gonna offend.
Now writing something more seriously.
You know I’m a religious one and I take it pretty seriously. (not that I’m a saint or anything like it) And I don’t see it as a taboo, Jack knows it, I joke about it, but I also take it very seriously.
About the festivities, which seem to have fired jack up, you can’t put a price on faith, it’s just like true love.
This may be seem strangely awkward, but I do believe that is fair that all taxes payers paid for the celebrations, for the 50 years of the Cristo-Rei statue. Because, and this is important you don’t forget, is that statue celebrates the fact that Portugal was able to not take part in the WW2.
It’s true that the statue resembles The Idea we have of Jesus Christ, but it’s not only a religious/Christian celebration. May you remember that Christ is believed to be dead and to come back, and what better end of war milestone there is than the One who came back?
Now about the video (the long one), I’ve seen it and I’ll post a proper text soon…
Now about the video (the short one), have you noticed he ends up not answering the question?
John Scar Kramer
Will Bloom: Josephine actually went to the Congo last year.
Senior Ed Bloom: Oh, so you know?
"Big Fish", right? =)
I'm not religious too and as I don't believe, I often make jokes about it. Though, I also know how to respect it when I'm with someone that believes.
I don't criticize people that belive, I think that people that have faith, in general, can live more peacefully with themselves. I just think that there are many ways to have faith in someting and I don't understand those people who let their religious believes overcome all that's rational, specially when it starts to become a risk for someone elses life.
I went to watch a catholic priest's sermon (I don't know how to say "missa" in english xD) once in my life, and I didn't like it. It was all about how we needed to live punishing ourselves because Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins. Sorry, but I don't get it. Perhaps I just didn't have much luck with the priest, but he didn't captivate me at all, and I think that it is an important thing about beeing religious.
*
@Calvin:
It's good you have a different opinion. I totally disagree, but that spices up the discussion :)
I believe in my rights as a citizen of a democratic society. I believe in article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."
No subject should be considered "too powerful to be mocked", because then, who decides which ones should and shouldn't?
"I am gay. I decide homosexuality is too powerful to be mocked"
"I am crippled, and I decide this subject is too powerful to be mocked".
I don't have the right to force this restrictions to someone else, because I don't control what he says, feels or thinks...
And you see, it's exactly this line of thought that leads to religious extremists blowing up bombs in every corner: "Someone is against my faith and I can't allow that!!"
Saying something can't be touched or changed just because it's old, it's no good either. The rules of Gladiators were invented a long time ago and that doesn't make it right today. Same with slavery and so on...
And you talk about respect, but you forget respect is a two way road. You can't demand it for you and don't give it to others. If I have to respect your beliefs and your traditions and your celebrations and your words - and I do, although I disagree with them - you have to respect my desbeliefs and my words against it. Quite simple...
And about the statue, it's not supposed to be my secular government and my taxes paying to "keep people believing that religion is alive".
@John:
It's not a taboo to you until a certain level, you have to admit it. Then you get pissed off... But John, you know what I mean, and you know you're no rule! Anyhow...
That little thing about "you can't put a price on faith" was just an unhappy moment, I expect.
I have no way to contradict that argument, I'm sorry...
Wait, I may have something. The priest in charge of the said monument spent 1 million € working on restauring it (cut the grass on the floor, new paintings for the walls, etc) because he felt it needed to look good for the birthday party.
"I asked the bank for some money, but I don't want to start paying right now..."
"Are you from the Catholic church?"
"Yes"
"No problem, then!"
Despite this, the cost of the celebration the other day was held by both cities, Lisbon and Almada. 200 000 euros!
Now they thought they should get new lights because the face of Jesus is not lighten enough. I guess it's more 200 000€ or something. But who cares?
Unemployment? People starving to death? No money to get the hospitals running? No... What's wrong with that, if Jesus is brighly looking at us? (s)
Yes, it was built to celebrate Portugal not participating in WW2, but it was also a cover up for the thousands of portuguese soldiers who died in Africa, the thousands of portuguese citizens who couldn't talk freely during 40 years and had to worship the ego of a dictator. That's also what we're paying to celebrate.
But I guess the world is just so fucked up...
"It is individuals who have rights and not religions"
WARNING: This post is so big that I got this message: "Your HTML cannot be accepted: Must be at most 4,096 characters" so I recommend you have some time to read it, or you could read some now, rest, and then read the end later lol.
=P it really is difficult to argue for religion when I don't agree with it lol, but I like to play the 2 roles, so I'll give it a try...
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."
You are right, you may joke, mock and even spit on jesus face (if it is a statue, and that statue is yours, ofc) and some people may think you are an asshole, who cares? it's your opinion, they can't judge you... but why would you do such thing? they have the right to choose their beliefs, the two way road.. in the past religion always went against science, (it still burns inside of me) there was no two way road, just one, and if you were driving on the wrong way you would pay with your life (just like in traffics lol), now you don't see that happing very much right? oh yeah, Da Vinci code... they had no right to even try to argue against that, but they did, and they lost.
About the "too powerful" yeah, got me, may I wanted to say important, and you gave some important examples too, like health, looks and sexuality... For example in our society we accept gay people (at least we say that we do), can you mock with them? yes, is it rational, polite or well accepted? probably not (I would but that's me because I don't like gay people very much, and I admit, I'm generalizing).
My point is, you have the right to talk about everything you want, the more I live, the more I realize that there is no taboo in our society, although you would be a better member of society if you accept all the people and beliefs, not follow, just accept.
Would you mock with the cripple, the ugly, the poor?
(this ones I believe that they have a discount because some of them didn't make anything to be like they were..) but sexuality and beliefs can be chosen (some defend that it can't), the same way that I accept gay people (by not criticize it) I accept religion, christianity or any other.
"Article 1.
* All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
To be continued...
Old stuff...
This is why slavery and other old costumes are not allowed:
"Article 4:
* No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
"And you talk about respect, but you forget respect is a two way road."
Didn't saw this going from your head =P I thought you knew that society doesn't work that way, there's nothing to say here, the two way road is in fact a narrowing which the priority is given to the power...
To protect myself, I never expect to receive more or the same that I give, although it would be the "right" thing to do.
Money that comes from taxes going to religion... You knew about this because of the media, me too, and there's nothing bad about =P if you were affected by the media, it doesn't matter, the fact is that you don't want your money to get into stuff that you don't believe, use or accept... Well, that's life, our democracy in fact, (I don't understand much of politics but this is my point of view) you pay taxes so your country can be better (so they say), they use that money, not only on religion, but in all national spaces, roads, airports, like these last two? yes, because you think it's useful right? now, what about football? like it or not, check this website:
http://www.rtp.pt/web/euro2004/estadios.shtm
you talk about 200 000 euros... I rather talk millions. Tell me what you think about those numbers. And now think about the unemployment, starvation, hospitals, schools and houses. Those 200 000 euros that came from your taxes were used (once again) in tourism... yes, some strangers came to pray there too, so the government had to polish the statue so Jesus could be brighting looking at the newcomers. The thing I said about "keep it alive" it's also true, that's what government says to the people... bring new people, that's what made them use 200 000.
And I think that 200 000 spent on a statue so more people could go see it, might bring profit because of transportation, food they buy there, and so on... which is good for the local workers.
Calvin.
Oh boy...this comments are outstanding!!
Not getting [right] into this discussion, here's how i see religion.
Not a long time ago, maybe a couple of years or so, i realized i am agnostic.
If you ask me whether i believe in God or not,my answer is No, no doubt about that. The thing is I will change my belief as soon as it gets proved.
That vision results not only of my belief in science, but also of rationality.
We are, before believers, citizens who appreciate great values as freedom. [at least i am]
How am i suppose to comprehend that terrorism acts get justified over faith?? Did those victims get asked whether they thought it was a noble cause? No..but still, they got killed over it.
Am I suppose to buy a Greater Being when are kids dying of excruciating diseases? Where were God then?
To me, faith is human.Not innate. It gets learned!
To me, people need to believe in something bigger than themselves because i makes life easier. It aloud us to escape from some responsibilities that would have been there otherwise.It aloud us to go nuts and still have the compassion from others believers.
I do think anyone is free to believe in anything they want.But i do not think is healthy believing it blindly.
About that particular event Jack brought up, i am with him. And the reason is pretty simple.
Democracy presents itself in many visions. The Actual Administration does not go for Catholic Church. Therefore, those kind of events should be paid by believers, voluntary ones. Others' religions fans must not have get in the middle with no choice whatsoever.
About religion getting joked about..I mean, should we joke about everything?Shouldn't we joke at all?? Honestly, I've never given that too much thought. But i will.
wow this comments are to big for me :) but I guess this subject is even bigger.
I think that is important for people to have their own beliefs, it's important to them to have faith so I really think that religion is very important, and it agrees with what is morally correct, in theory, even if I think that religion it's like an excuse. Religion it's for people to put the blame on someone else, or for people who doesn't belief in themselves. (when I say religion I tried to talk like you, because for me religion it's a conduct, everyone has their own religion)
But I don't agree with the institution, the church, they can't even agree with themselves, and if they want to be respect they have to respect the others, I can't believe that people give money to the church and believe in a institution that already killed thousands of people.
How Jack said, this is a democracy, and if you say that religion is so strong and powerful I don't know why people are so afraid to discuss it, or so offended if they know they right, maybe they don't :)
* just another thing, about the statue: In my opinion I don't mind to pay because for me the statue it's a monument, it's a part of our culture and history. For me it's like going to visit a church even if your not catholic *
I say this has grown out of hand; this is not a matter to be discussed in a blog. This is something that should be debated face-to-face, instead of this note exchanging. I say if you want to continue this discussion, its best if it's done outside of the blog and having the conclusion or minute of the debate, posted afterwards.
Do you see it now? This is exactly why you don't talk about religion! x)
People take it to seriously (and I'm just saying that they do, not that they should or shouldn't) and the arguments lead to nowhere.
It isn't something like: "This is yellow, it is shown by its wavelength. Everyone sees this is yellow so if you're saying this is pink either you are too stupid or too proud to admit you're wrong." or "I say this weights 10kg and you say it weights 11kg, so let's just admit it weights 10,5kg!"
People get too "excited" and too "emotional" talking about it, and their beliefs are their beliefs, no one is going to change because in most mathers you have no way to prove that someone is wrong.
Relaaaaax!
*
Yeah, John is right...
Jack, let's settle this out-side! =P
Ok I admit... I just wrote this so I could have the post with most comments... There, I said it!
I am the undisputed champion now! Hurray!
John's thought is a good one. We could organize a formal debate on the subject, with a round table or something, and then, in the corner, there would be a little sword. And if you were able to get the sword out of the ground, you would be considered THE KING, therefore being right...
I might work on that if any of you are up to it.
I think it's healthy to discuss this things, we might end up learning something, but I'm sorry if I got a little carried away in the process... x)
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